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October 30, 2004

Comments

carlosmorales

Careful - Bill Maher was fired for saying the exact same thing (which worked out well, cuz now he has a kickass show on HBO). My brother was visited by Feds for saying the same thing.

What you are saying is emminently obvious to any non-idiot. Speaking truth to idiots is only slightly less dangerous than speaking truth to Power, though.

Big Brother is Watching :(

carlosmorales

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/247753p-212149c.html

These guys sure are class acts!

"A senior GOP strategist added, "anything that makes people nervous about their personal safety helps Bush."

He called it "a little gift," saying it helps the President but doesn't guarantee his reelection."

Bman

Personally, I don't think it will make a huge difference either way. It's too easy to read it however you want to read it:

Bush: See? The terrorists are still out there! You need me to protect you, America!

Kerry: See? The terrorists are still out there! Bush is too incompetent to stop them!

And anyone who's already decided who they're voting for will just interpret it as more evidence that their decision is right.

Now, KILLING Bin Laden right before 11/2 would probably guarantee a Bush reelection.

Raist3d

Yikes! Your brother got a visit by the Feds??? What exactly did he say or do? Use e-mail if you want...

- Raist

carlosmorales

As I understand it, he made a comment not long after 9/11 suggesting that we shouldn't be suprised that half the world hated us (or something along those lines). A coworker overheard him, didn't like it, and called it in.

Thoughtcrime.

Raist3d

A fucking co-worker??? WTF! Man.

I like how we say we love freedom of expression and then do shit like this here in this great country. So what did he had to go through? Just Q&A? Search?

- Raist

crowdpleazr

Well, while our government may have done some pretty damn evil things and we certainly aren't free of our problems, I still think what Bin Laden did was evil and wrong. A lot of innocent people lost their lives. I think the war on terror started because attacking our troops is one thing, that's part of the job, but when you kill men, women, children indiscriminently, you've crossed the fucking line. How would you feel if someone shot your family to death in the name of quelling America's antagonism in the world, when you know your family has nothing to do with it?

Sure, Bin Laden has a point, and yeah we've really fucked (and continue to fuck) the Middle East, but by the same token, there's been a lot of violence there for a very long time, and we surely cannot claim all of it is our fault. I'm pretty sure it wasn't America that started the Iraq/Iran war, no matter how much we may have been involved in it, and we surely weren't allowing the Taliban to torture and destroy the Afghan people or the world. Like you said, THINK about what's happening. To say it's knee jerk to condemn Bin Laden because America sucks is just as much a knee jerk reaction against Bush and Co.

carlosmorales

This is what typically happens in these conversations.

Raist wasn't defending OBL, in any way. He was just commenting that the pat, childlike way our leaders explained the motivation behind the attack was superficial.

I normally wouldn't hurt a fly (literally, today at lunch, I ignored the fvcking fly that was intent on eating my burger). That being said, I really think there is no torture terrible enough to inflict on OBL and his ilk.

Clear enough?

By the same token, Bush is awash in the blood of innocents, and by association so am I - I, the burger eating pacifist, am indirectly responsible for hundreds of thousands of needless deaths.

And that just aint right.

Raist3d

Crowdplzr,

Is what Carlos said. I am not siding with OBL. What I am saying is that we (americans) really don't think about what is going on- why this happened. This is not an accident-justified or not. There's a reason(s) why people would be willing to give their life to crash an airplane and end the life of innocents.

I just think that just saying OBL needs to doesn't change much.

And btw, I really think you (Crowd) and I are on the same side on this. Sorry if what I wrote made it seem like I support OBL or any such thing.

When I think about all this I just shake my head. US foreign policy has been horrible enough in key areas that I can't just wave the flag pretending we are the inventors of the free world - and this I say without taking credit away from the United States to do the right things many times too.

I just see both things being wrong, and just pointing at OBL, calling for his capture and execution doesn't solve anything of what we do either.

You know the biggest irony of Sep 11 that many don't know about? That was the same day CIA operatives assasinated the democratically-elected Allende in Chile a while back. If someone is from Chile, how would they feel about Sep 11 when they see us cry?

Anyway, just to make it clear again, I am not advocating saying "OBL is right" at all.

One last comment:

"How would you feel if someone shot your family to death in the name of quelling America's antagonism in the world, when you know your family has nothing to do with it?"

There's a group of people that actually lost relatives in the Sep 11 attack, that are actually advocating looking at the other side long and hard without the knee jerk reactions.

How would I personally feel? I would be pissed off, sad, depressed and at the same time I would definitively look at what we have also done to contribute to that hate.

Yes, I mean this. And like I pointed out, some people are already doing so - I wouldn't be the first.

My last point basically is what I am calling a knee-jerk reaction is condemning Bin Laden without thinking whether we are doing something wrong with our US policy in the middle east or not, pointing to him as an example of why we need to "be tough and why they are barbaric, evil, religion fundamentalists" applying this to the whole Middle East (yes, I have heard this very description applied many times) - without any elaboration as to even why.

Thanks for your post.

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